The greatest American.....

I think there are some Americans we can put on par or above Reagan. Lincoln, FDR, MLK, Jefferson, Wilson and thats just some I could think of. Reagan was a great leader tho
 
I don't know about FDR. The plethora of social welfare programs that were begun by him are what are killing the economy now. He was a great leader during the war (no concern about collateral damage there!), but what ended the depression was WW2, not the programs that he started. Reagan, now properly being viewed as the great man he was.
 
I know there are many arguments over social programs today, but FDR and the new deal turned the depression around immediately. Within two years of its implementation (1933-1935) unemployment dropped 5%, and would continue each year up until WW2. And some programs such as the Social Security, FDIC, and subsidizing our agriculture is something essential still today.
 
I live surrounded by farmland, hell, my town is even named Farmland. Subsidies are not essential for farm production, especially ethanol or sugar. The unemployment rate dropped in 1937, but rebounded and increased later in 1937 due to another depression. The depression did not really end until WW2. Furthermore, the present trend to high government workers was tried before, "During the 1920s, there were, on average, about 553,000 paid civilian employees of the federal government. By 1939 there were 953,891 paid civilian employees, and there were 1,042,420 in 1940." Doesn't that sound familiar? The recent stimulus, by CBO estimates, cost more than $250K per job. Not really a bargain.
 
I disagree; I think Reagan was very positive for the time he came along but we are glossing over some of the more significant flaws of his presidency and the long term consequences of those flaws, both in terms of government functioning and wider approaches to foreign policy that are coming back to bite us in the ass.

As far as the list of MotherMan, I think Woodrow Wilson should be scratched from any list other than presidents that caused significant long term harm (see massive suspension of civil liberties, segregation, and the gargantuan mess that was the Treaty of Versailles and ultimately American isolationism and various tendrils leading to WWII).

FDR: a man of context, and his social welfare programs were needed at the time and, I would argue, still are. Remember, prior to that era there were no social safety nets AT ALL; hell, there was no protection of labor rights for anyone, no regulation of financial institutions (which led to the Great Depression and the undoing of which is largely to blame for our current mess) and the concept of public works was considered a gross overreach of government. Now argue public works all you like, but without them large parts of our country (the south especially) would never have developed along current lines and there would be a severe lack of infrastructure, without which our wartime industrialization and peacetime success would be impossible. No, FDR's programs are not responsible for our mess -- funny accounting from Reagan through today is responsible and both parties share in that problem.

By the last what I mean is simple: since Reagan our mantra has been lower taxes and less regulation but there has been an increase in services during that time, and a massive explosion in military spending. Yes the military spending served its purpose, but every president and both parties in congress have expanded the government while whittling away the tax base for short term gains. The worst at this was the Bush presidency but everyone has a hand in it, and that short term gain and long term use of debt is a significant problem for which we are going to have some real tough decisions to make. The reason Reagan is part of this is that he left office with an enormous debt; again, it served its purpose but cutting taxes while expanding expenditure is nothing more than asking for long term issues. And every Republican since Reagan has followed his mantra of lower taxes, but their real problem is the lack of a larger goal as a reason to lower taxes.

Now to Reagan's credit his ultimate goal of ending the Cold War was realized but whether he was directly responsible for that is debatable. I think Reagan is a mixed bag as his administration blatantly broke federal laws to achieve their goals in an end run around congress (something that cannot be overlooked and, if the Clinton test is used, should have led to impeachment) and employed some short sighted policies to achieve their long range goals (Afghanistan and the Soviets) that we are paying for today. So does he belong on a list of top Americans? Give it time and see how things shake out. Among the most influential without a doubt, but that influence is too much of a mixed bag for me. Oh yeah, and before some respond that employ too much hyperbole and not enough information, I am independent of Democrats and Republicans and draw my political leanings from both their sources and consistently voted Republican until the most recent Bush.
 
Haha i knew I could spark a good topic in here :)

My girlfreind is taking a world history class, and I have been at war with her professor hahaha. He is a hippy, liberal, buddist dude....so I thought this would be a good opportunity to get some imput.....haha
 
You dont think his increase in military spending was necessary? It was part of tactic to draw the Soviets into an arms race they couldnt hope to win. The soviets were already at war in the middle east and it was breaking their bank. But like other presidents that have "cleaned up" the messes by prior presidents....I think he did a good job cleaning up after Carter. "Reaganomics" wasnt so bad after all....and Carter was a military embarrassment.

As far as ending the cold war...well we already knew no one could get to Kruchev (Kennedy tried). But...Gorb? The relationship between Reagan and Gorb got it done...and the financial strain put on the Soviets topped it off.

I just wish we (Americans) could walk tall and carry a big stick again.
 
ChuckTheHammer said:
I disagree; I think Reagan was very positive for the time he came along but we are glossing over some of the more significant flaws of his presidency and the long term consequences of those flaws, both in terms of government functioning and wider approaches to foreign policy that are coming back to bite us in the ass.

As far as the list of MotherMan, I think Woodrow Wilson should be scratched from any list other than presidents that caused significant long term harm (see massive suspension of civil liberties, segregation, and the gargantuan mess that was the Treaty of Versailles and ultimately American isolationism and various tendrils leading to WWII).

FDR: a man of context, and his social welfare programs were needed at the time and, I would argue, still are. Remember, prior to that era there were no social safety nets AT ALL; hell, there was no protection of labor rights for anyone, no regulation of financial institutions (which led to the Great Depression and the undoing of which is largely to blame for our current mess) and the concept of public works was considered a gross overreach of government. Now argue public works all you like, but without them large parts of our country (the south especially) would never have developed along current lines and there would be a severe lack of infrastructure, without which our wartime industrialization and peacetime success would be impossible. No, FDR's programs are not responsible for our mess -- funny accounting from Reagan through today is responsible and both parties share in that problem.

By the last what I mean is simple: since Reagan our mantra has been lower taxes and less regulation but there has been an increase in services during that time, and a massive explosion in military spending. Yes the military spending served its purpose, but every president and both parties in congress have expanded the government while whittling away the tax base for short term gains. The worst at this was the Bush presidency but everyone has a hand in it, and that short term gain and long term use of debt is a significant problem for which we are going to have some real tough decisions to make. The reason Reagan is part of this is that he left office with an enormous debt; again, it served its purpose but cutting taxes while expanding expenditure is nothing more than asking for long term issues. And every Republican since Reagan has followed his mantra of lower taxes, but their real problem is the lack of a larger goal as a reason to lower taxes.

Now to Reagan's credit his ultimate goal of ending the Cold War was realized but whether he was directly responsible for that is debatable. I think Reagan is a mixed bag as his administration blatantly broke federal laws to achieve their goals in an end run around congress (something that cannot be overlooked and, if the Clinton test is used, should have led to impeachment) and employed some short sighted policies to achieve their long range goals (Afghanistan and the Soviets) that we are paying for today. So does he belong on a list of top Americans? Give it time and see how things shake out. Among the most influential without a doubt, but that influence is too much of a mixed bag for me. Oh yeah, and before some respond that employ too much hyperbole and not enough information, I am independent of Democrats and Republicans and draw my political leanings from both their sources and consistently voted Republican until the most recent Bush.
Click to expand...


Reagan did what he had to do to ensure the primacy of the United States in what could have been an extremely turbulent era if we had gone to a full scale war with the Soviet Union. Your points are well written chuck, however when I look at the impact that Reagan had on the nation, visa-vi today (as a Conservative) Reagan united the people under the flag for a lack of better words, he worked to instill patriotism in the hearts and minds on every American and he succeeded. He acted like a leader both in what he said and what he did, which countless politicians fail to do. He gave great speeches yes; but any individual capable of intelligent thought, looks beyond the podium and into the man behind the words. When I examine Regan, he actually embodied what he was trying to say. He worked to revitalize Patriotism in American, and he will always be the president who will be remember for that. Aside from some of his short comings (lets face it he wasn't perfect), there was one thing that I believe made him stand out from his predecessors, and even that of current presidents: backbone. Reagan possessed tenacity, American grit, and assertiveness. He wanted to ensure that he was the alpha male of the world leaders, and in a world on the edge of nuclear war, its important that you posses the prowess in physical being to make the enemy afraid, and realize you are not a weak leader ( unlike our spineless more contemporary president who we saw bow to communist China at the G20. )

Where is our passion for the United States now? Where has patriotism gone?

just my .02 bud.
 
I do disagree with the amount of deregulation and the amount of tax cutting republicans have adhered to since Reagan.

However, the amount of debt we are in is exaggerated constantly. The last time we did not have debt was in like 1820. Today we have yet to fully pay back WW2. And although Debt has gone up in relation to GDP during the past ten years, we have yet to come close to that faced in the 1930's and 1940's
 
Damn Chuck....well written.

And Dirty-Lex, I remember people building bunkers and fall-out shelters in the 80's.....scary time! If Reagan did anything...he provided the people with a sense of security when we needed it the most. It was epic that only 20 minutes into his presidency, the American hostages were released in Tehran. haha
 
ex3narc said:
It was epic that only 20 minutes into his presidency, the American hostages were released in Tehran. haha
Click to expand...

That has more to do with Iran's relation with Carter. They didn't want him to have any glory when the people returned. and They knew he wouldn't fight (he is a self admitted pacifist), but they had no idea how Reagan would react
 
There is a time to be an alpha male (then) and a time to recognize the world has changed (when would be enemies hold the majority of your debt). My point on Reagan is let's examine what he really was and not his legend, and yes I hold the same throughout history. There is no perfect leader, but ones that are responsible for breaking federal laws that were passed by those directly elected by the people to stop the administration from doing something, and whose actions ultimately benefited our enemies (please read up on Iran Contra) do not get a free pass. Oh, and the man had alzheimer's in office. I said he was necessary in context, but many policies are like last night's booze: coming back. For reference please see the current wave of anti Americanism in Latin America, American support then abandonment of Afghanistan and the subsequent power vacuum that gave us the Taliban, and our promotion of Sadam Hussein and a variety of other dictators throughout the middle east and broader. Were they tools of the time? Yes, but my point is that if handled better these developments might be minimized and our current crises could be quite different.
 
I was always a big fan of Regan and of all the men that held the office of President in my lifetime he is by far my favorite but I would stop short of calling him "The greatest American" as you put it. While I was a big Regan supporter and felt that he was the right man at the right time for the job as Chuck pointed out he did break the law and made some serious mistakes that we are definitely paying for now.
 
Haha yea I may have went overboard with the title...but damn if I didn't get some good feedback lol. My girl is using alot of this for a debate thing for school. I've always been a big Reagan fan, but I wanted her to see some good arguments.
 
MotherMan said:
I think there are some Americans we can put on par or above Reagan. Lincoln, FDR, MLK, Jefferson, Wilson and thats just some I could think of. Reagan was a great leader tho
Click to expand...
FDR and Wilson? Wow, possibly the only two presidents with a more socialist record than Obama. Hell, FDR tried to have the Supreme Court expanded by four justices because they ruled against his policy and he wanted to appoint enough yes men to the court to run through his re-invention of America.
ChuckTheHammer said:
I disagree; I think Reagan was very positive for the time he came along but we are glossing over some of the more significant flaws of his presidency and the long term consequences of those flaws, both in terms of government functioning and wider approaches to foreign policy that are coming back to bite us in the ass.

As far as the list of MotherMan, I think Woodrow Wilson should be scratched from any list other than presidents that caused significant long term harm (see massive suspension of civil liberties, segregation, and the gargantuan mess that was the Treaty of Versailles and ultimately American isolationism and various tendrils leading to WWII).

FDR: a man of context, and his social welfare programs were needed at the time and, I would argue, still are. Remember, prior to that era there were no social safety nets AT ALL; hell, there was no protection of labor rights for anyone, no regulation of financial institutions (which led to the Great Depression and the undoing of which is largely to blame for our current mess) and the concept of public works was considered a gross overreach of government. Now argue public works all you like, but without them large parts of our country (the south especially) would never have developed along current lines and there would be a severe lack of infrastructure, without which our wartime industrialization and peacetime success would be impossible. No, FDR's programs are not responsible for our mess -- funny accounting from Reagan through today is responsible and both parties share in that problem.

By the last what I mean is simple: since Reagan our mantra has been lower taxes and less regulation but there has been an increase in services during that time, and a massive explosion in military spending. Yes the military spending served its purpose, but every president and both parties in congress have expanded the government while whittling away the tax base for short term gains. The worst at this was the Bush presidency but everyone has a hand in it, and that short term gain and long term use of debt is a significant problem for which we are going to have some real tough decisions to make. The reason Reagan is part of this is that he left office with an enormous debt; again, it served its purpose but cutting taxes while expanding expenditure is nothing more than asking for long term issues. And every Republican since Reagan has followed his mantra of lower taxes, but their real problem is the lack of a larger goal as a reason to lower taxes.

Now to Reagan's credit his ultimate goal of ending the Cold War was realized but whether he was directly responsible for that is debatable. I think Reagan is a mixed bag as his administration blatantly broke federal laws to achieve their goals in an end run around congress (something that cannot be overlooked and, if the Clinton test is used, should have led to impeachment) and employed some short sighted policies to achieve their long range goals (Afghanistan and the Soviets) that we are paying for today. So does he belong on a list of top Americans? Give it time and see how things shake out. Among the most influential without a doubt, but that influence is too much of a mixed bag for me. Oh yeah, and before some respond that employ too much hyperbole and not enough information, I am independent of Democrats and Republicans and draw my political leanings from both their sources and consistently voted Republican until the most recent Bush.
Click to expand...
You seem to blame the military for our debt more than entitlement spending. Social Security and Medicare (both created by Democrats, hell Democratic president Truman was the very first person to be enrolled in Medicare) collectively are more than double the cost of the defense budget (at it's current bloated wartime cost). To not blame entitlement spending for our budget woes is like not blaming the moon for the tides, they are inextricably linked. The only goal needed to justify lower taxes is lower taxes. And taxes can be lowered if the government spends less money. Spending is not justification for raising taxes it's an excuse to raise taxes. Obviously I'm Libertarian which means I think the government should be as small as possible and still maintain it's obligations to the citizens.
MotherMan said:
That has more to do with Iran's relation with Carter.
Click to expand...
Very true, they had no regard for him or his vagina (too much?).

Anyhow, happy 100th to the Gipper, you gotta love a president with the stones to bomb a French Embassy. Love him or hate him he was a strange mix of take no shit and grandfather of the nation (not in a forefather way but in a wise and charming grandfatherly way).
 
I'm a libertarian at heart as well. I'm not a hardcore conservative; I see the corruption in the Republican party, as well as the Democratic party. And, as you would expect from a conservative, I think there are more corrupt liberals. The liberals think the same of the conservatives.

In any case, to me, less government and less taxes makes perfect, logical sense. There is one thing I like about some of the European political systems; we need at least 3 prominent political parties, maybe 4. I know I'm going to get shit for this, but it needs to be said. There are a few countries in Europe that do quite well with even 3 political parties. I hate seeing the extremists from both sides, Democratic and Republican, get the most voice. We need more prominent moderates. More people with realistic, attainable goals.

/endrant
 
The only thing I hate when talking about politics is that it's makes me fell stupid, LOL. My under-educated self just gets confused, then again I don't remember a whole lot before the age of 14.

Anyways, continue on, I enjoy the read :)
 
Every President has their flaws; I remember being at the brink of war as a kid; great speeches; the push for "Made in USA." Like every great coach he had charisma that everybody bought into. Great American, yes; Greatest American, no. I'm still trying to figure out what Bill Clinton ever did for the USA; getting BJ's & fucking the factory workers in the ass with NAFTA.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top