Gunship and One Sided Commander

SunshineTheGoat said:
I think it was that dev tripwire that used to promote top Red Orchestra servers who had the best community and admin quality with free server hosting for a period of time in an effort to promote community involvement and awesome environments for players, was pretty cool actually.
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Our RO: rising storm server was rank top3 for a few month until we took it down. Never got any reward for it ;)
 
Snugglepotamus said:
...Tactical decisions from above would influence the game. Unfortunately the 2 biggest things a commander does to influence the game (from the super tactical screen where he taps a button and a location on the map, woooooo) are scans and gunships. These don't lead to tactical shifts, these lead to bottlenecks, and one sided supremacy. They also place an unnecessary weight on the gunship objectives.When there is one commander, it is such a ridiculously unfair advantage. It isn't impossible to win, but your team better be much better. I dislike things that unbalance games out of the gate
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Again. Sit and play as a commander for a day or a week. You'll learn it's not nearly as one sided as you think. And if you want to talk about unbalanced out of the gate. How about the sheer amount of team stacking that occurs on the servers naturally at times despite "shuffling" the players. It's like the games tools shuffle the players then shuffles them right back into their teams. And since it is squad based its like it mixes the teams squads then mixes them right back. I see maybe 2 squads get team shifted per side on average. Again. Things you notice as commander and pay close attention to your squads player names and the scoreboards. Oooh. Almost forgot. When you get lucky enough to be on a team that doesn't use the AA, the enemy team takes air superiority and has an awesome AA user. That's always fun too. Especially when someone on the other team grabs the air to ground jet and just camps your teams AA spawn. Great times to be had. Especially if your the commander basically telling your squads where these people are and they do nothing.

I totally understand where most of you guys are coming from. Up to about 2 weeks ago I felt the same way til I got bored at work and started playing with commander again on my iPad. In fact on my iPad I have noticed one glaring issue. The Cruise Missile seems more accurate. I've gotten big 15-20+ kills in a single drop on the iPad and try to do the same thing on PC and it pretty much fails every time. But neither here nor there. Anyone who doesn't like commander mode being active in game. I just ask them to try it for a while before dismissing it altogether. And if you can find the right people. It's tons of fun. For players in game and those commanding.
 
x=FAST=x said:
Our RO: rising storm server was rank top3 for a few month until we took it down. Never got any reward for it ;)
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Top 3 globally over there too?! You guys running some sort of monopoly on FPS servers. :p Dang, congrats.

Not sure if it was tripwire or another "indie-type" dev who ran this promotion, also if it was for red orchestra vanilla in early days or RO:Rising Storm. Regardless, if an indie dev like that can manage promotions like this, a multi billion dollar company like DICE/EA should be able to show some love to top contributing servers like you TBG lads.
 
Snugglepotamus said:
There are a number of pages, so some of this, most of this will be rehashed, but I will give a little background first. Commander mode is an example of Dice listening (it was one of the things people constantly bitched about BF3 lacking) but not implementing something properly. It is an idea that could be brilliant but instead detracts greatly from the game (I'll get into why in a moment). Overall BF4 was obviously rushed. Nothing was complete and nothing had polish. This isn't news, and there isn't really much I can add to the conversation. It was still fun broken. It has improved. It is still fun. It is still broken in many ways. They did not balance the maps (or really even complete them), the vehicles, perks, the new gadgets, or commander mode. The only reason people aren't bitching about specific guns being unbalanced more is due to the fact that dying to all of them feels the same, getting zapped by a time wizard. I also suspect the vast majority of EA DICE resources, as in almost all, are going to future game development. Hopefully they got enough egg on their face and lawsuits in their pants that the next release will be less broken. I am however very skeptical that major overhauls will be performed on vehicle or commander mechanics. There will be tweaks such as gunship respawn time, reload rate, repair rate, damage, which are totally necessary, but won't really address some of the underlying problems.

In BF3, if you took right reactive armor damage (reactive armor was on all sides on light armor, all sides except front on MBTS, and each one absorbed a rocket but could be repaired for those who don't know) on the RU light armor it appeared as rear and rear appeared as right, but only on certain maps and only on the little icon. Switching seats or getting out but back in would make your reactive armor appear to be in tact, but not really there, that's where this bug could become troublesome for someone who didn't know. MBTs (maybe just Abrams, I can't remember) took rear damage when moving with SHIFT, which could actually be used to your advantage if you had rear reactive. There were a ton of other weird things with each vehicle. It was like this from release day until I quit for BF4, I suspect it still is.

I am typically a conquest 64 player, so what I say pertains to conquest 64 and not other game modes.

What I look for when I try to find a server:
-People actually in the server, server doesn't die after one team gets bitch slapped once
-Team shuffle between rounds so that people can take turns bitch slapping/being bitch slapped
-Conquest
-Not instant spawn
-Not 3000 ticket
-Kick/ban for blatant griefing (including racism/homophobia)/glitching and of course cheating
-No kick/ban for killing people
-Low ping for me, not full of high pings (most places won't ping limit due to difficulty of seeding, but some places are just infested with 95% people who obviously live no where remotely close to the server location. I also work nights, so my options are often limited)
-A good rotation of maps, preferably adaptive maps (Metro plays wonderfully with 24-30, is loathed by the majority of 64 player conquest players who aren't stats driven)
-No commander mode

Again these are all personal preference that I could easily explain why I prefer them. I have noticed that most people who play lots of conquest 64 and do not play a single map or setting agree on most points. The reason I don't play non conquest often is not because the idea behind the game modes is bad, but because the mechanics are broken. Obliteration, parachutes and glowing SHOOOOOT ME as bomb carrier ruin it. Rush can be amazing, but asset allocation is often very bad. Many maps just don't work with certain player counts, often times objectives within the same map will favor far different player counts. In low ticket rush games, people don't attack with the balls necessary to make it, in high ticket rush games, things typically devolve into a brand of campfest that does not appeal to me personally.

I think most people who play conquest 64 settings that span the maps (not niche map players) enjoy the same types of games I do, super close games that go back and forth win or lose, games with teams that both relentlessly push when needed, games where you hear the end music and contemplate coming back with pads if you could only save 2 people and not die. Win or lose, those games give me a BF boner.

Take a look at what commander mode brings to the table for both the person playing commander and the grunts on the ground (remembering how simplistic the interface is).
-Gunship
-Scan (inf/vehicle/emp <- lumping all that shit)
-Cruise
-Vehicle Drop
-HVT
-Ammo drop
-Communication with squads

I won't argue with someone who says being a commander is fun simply because why argue opinion. I happen to think it is entirely too simplistic for the power that it wields. I will argue that commander mode and the actions a commander seriously detract from the strategy of the game and the balance for those on the ground. It is simplistic but ultra powerful. Ideally commander mode would put 2 strategic minds against one another with constant back and forth communication with squad leaders. Momentum would shift. Squads would rally behind orders. People would have sex with each other's mothers. Tactical decisions from above would influence the game. Unfortunately the 2 biggest things a commander does to influence the game (from the super tactical screen where he taps a button and a location on the map, woooooo) are scans and gunships. These don't lead to tactical shifts, these lead to bottlenecks, and one sided supremacy. They also place an unnecessary weight on the gunship objectives.When there is one commander, it is such a ridiculously unfair advantage. It isn't impossible to win, but your team better be much better. I dislike things that unbalance games out of the gate. BF doesn't need help being unbalanced within an individual game. Even with 2 commanders, one team will start to win. The other team will have less and less room. This area will be lit by the gunship, and paratroopers, and no one can move out of it undetected. Flanks are killed before they begin. Armor coming out of base to alleviate this stress is bombarded by parachuting SRAWS, Javs on hills, multiple tanks, the gunship itself, and has 1 active protection and 1 set of rounds to navigate this. People who manage to make it out of spawn are greeted by a scan, gunship rounds, and a whole bunch of shit they can't fight. It becomes shooting fish in a barrel, and if you're an average player you're gonna be the fish half the time. I do not enjoy being on either side of this.

I personally think that if the gunship were just changed into a paradrop site, it would be the most important objective on most maps. When you add guns, a screwed up timer, the ability to see everything, the ability to shoot at the point that controls it, and an infinite flight time (I think it should be like bomber, there's a warning, it comes, you shoot shit, it passes), the game goes to hell. For people who say, it's just hit it with 5 of these, or kill it with AA, and it's down. It's easy to kill. You obviously aren't the people trying to retake the gunship checkpoint. At the very least the gunship completely ties up one of your major assets. The influence/ammo this person (typically it's gonna be AA or jet if the gunship is being popped constantly) is using on a gunship are no longer directed at helping his team. This assumes he doesn't have problems of his own.

-Gunship: favors winning team, terribly unbalanced in power, duration of activity, respawn, checkpoints that control gunship are generally in the open and completely covered by gunship (Wavebreaker being the exception)
-Scans: kills flanks, something crucial to a team coming from behind
-Cruise: Make what you want of it. it isn't game breaking, but I feel the best use for it is getting people from annoying buildings. The game is too vertical, I don't think the solution is to have a missile, but to prevent fuckers from getting up there in the place.
-Vehicle drop: ha
-HVT: needs some tweaking, a minor concern
-Ammo drop: I dislike finite ammo on vehicles, but that's another 10 pages of why, but I do like the tactical feel an ammo pack gives to armor in the area. I also like changing kits on it. Can't complain about this one.
-Communication with squads: really just doesn't happen on a large basis, but potentially a great benefit









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Snuggle you will surely agree that with commander disabled battlefield is almost an entirely different game play experience. I have had so many "nerdgasm" (lmao don't judge me) "battlefield moments" because of brilliant strategies and flanking tactics that would be just near impossible had commander assets been present.

Since commander was disabled have you noticed how each map's particular "environmental/combat awareness" has come to life? Now the environment in and of itself presents such an awesome variety of tactical options that was impossible to be utilized with UAV or gunship spam revealing everyone's positions at nearly all times.

You put on the right camo and paint, a silencer, and if your squad sets up a defensive position in a good setting of brush, you have a solid chance to fend off enemy reinforcements multiple times larger than your own. Or, on naval strike maps an attack boat can position itself between some rock formations, and without gunship spam this one boat can wreak havoc from it's defensive perimeter, also spawning in additional reinforcements who can then disembark on jet-skis and flank an island point. The gunship will not reveal your attack boat's every move for nearly every second of the match. Take an urban map like Metro for example, one UAV would cover a huge chunk of the map, now an American starting spawn point being pushed in hard has a solid chance to out maneuver the base rape with the help of a couple smoke grenades, a flash bang, and some riot shields - UAV won't reveal your every move as you try to get around the surrounding enemies.

With the absence of UAV spam on Zavod for example, I was in a squad that was able to escape a base-rape by strategically moving from one end of the map to the other; from bunker to bunker, one brush to the next, totally undetected because we chose tactical flanks, with a woodland camouflage and paint equipped, and silencers, our squad ninja styled and freed our entire team from a base rape by doing a back cap. It was a brilliant maneuver that rescued the team and would have been near entirely impossible had UAV spam been present. Then setting up a defensive position, camouflaged into some brush atop the bunker we held our own against several squads, stole their spawning LAV, and mined up the perimeter entrance to welcome the arriving enemy armor reinforcements. This 5 man squad held off wave after wave, and caused such a disruption that our team was able to push out and capture most of the map. A UAV would have pointed every responding enemy straight towards every nook and cranny we were bunked up in, likely preventing us from holding out long enough to free our base-raped teammates.

Those kinds of brilliant battlefield nerdgasm moments have continuously been happening in just these few days with commander being off.
 
The fact that you can be pushed back in a base on a VEHICLE server with or with out commander is sad.....small maps...yes UAV poses an issue, albeit a minor one. But how many small maps (not counting/metro/locker as thre are only a few AoA) are there? Guilan, Zhavod, A/B golmud, **Flood zone**, Pearl Market?

The fact that you bring NS maps into the equation has my blood pressure up. UAV poses NO threat to "flanking" maneuvers...Also, on 80% of the maps, the gunship only patrols half the battlefield(2-3 maybe 4 flags), and lasts less than 1-2 minutes every time its dropped. And gets maybe 4-5 kills a rotation..
 
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Snakebabies said:
The fact that you can be pushed back in a base on a VEHICLE server with or with out commander is sad.....small maps...yes UAV poses an issue, albeit a minor one. But how many small maps (not counting/metro/locker as thre are only a few AoA) are there? Guilan, Zhavod, A/B golmud, Pearl Market?

The fact that you bring NS maps into the equation has my blood pressure up. UAV poses NO threat to "flanking" maneuvers...
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For NS maps I was talking about the gunship, for Zavod I was talking about the UAV. The gunship is effectively more powerful than the UAV in that the passengers can spot everyone with their IRNV vision **infared not nv, oops**, and unlike the UAV, gunship spotting goes into the real time 3d spotter, they reveal all boat positions and all flanks done on smaller water craft. Blood pressure lowered?! :eek:
 
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the gunshhip is SUPPOSED to be powerful and feared....Rightly so, it's designed to provide AIR Supperiority for your team
 
Snakebabies said:
The fact that you can be pushed back in a base on a VEHICLE server with or with out commander is sad.....small maps...yes UAV poses an issue, albeit a minor one. But how many small maps (not counting/metro/locker as thre are only a few AoA) are there? Guilan, Zhavod, A/B golmud, Pearl Market?

The fact that you bring NS maps into the equation has my blood pressure up. UAV poses NO threat to "flanking" maneuvers...Also, on 80% of the maps, the gunship only patrols half the battlefield(2-3 maybe 4 flags), and lasts less than 1-2 minutes every time its dropped. And gets maybe 4-5 kills a rotation..
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Snakebabies said:
the gunshhip is SUPPOSED to be powerful and feared....Rightly so, it's designed to provide AIR Supperiority for your team
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It should be powerful and feared I agree, but also balanced - balance is key. It has an instant respawn timer that doesn't respect the server's vehicle respawn delay % remember? Instant re spawn timer on powerful, feared, air superiority vehicles is not a balanced game mechanic at all.
 
SunshineTheGoat said:
For NS maps I was talking about the gunship, for Zavod I was talking about the UAV. The gunship is effectively more powerful than the UAV in that the passengers can spot everyone with their IRNV vision, and unlike the UAV, gunship spotting goes into the real time 3d spotter, they reveal all boat positions and all flanks done on smaller water craft. Blood pressure lowered?! :eek:
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Ahhh so the 3d spotting is the undertone, via UAV/Gunship....why not just play on a Hardcore server, no 3d spottingn?
 
SunshineTheGoat said:
It should be powerful and feared I agree, but also balanced - balance is key. It has an instant respawn timer that doesn't respect the server's vehicle respawn delay % remember? Instant re spawn timer on powerful, feared, air superiority vehicles is not a balanced game mechanic at all.
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well the next patch will have cooldown on gunship right?
 
SunshineTheGoat said:
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Yup, 60-90 seconds I believe, as it is currently on CTE. Let's see what they do with UAV.
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Probably not anything....the only thing that could be done would be to add commander assets..I.E. UAV trailer. It really isn't an issue on bigger maps, only the smaller maps where multiple flags can but surveyed could be considered an issue. But even then, every corner you run into stragglers or squads. UAV or not, and still have 3d spotting, non surpressed weapons/nades n shit...hopefully your squad has your six.
 
Snakebabies said:
Probably not anything....the only thing that could be done would be to add commander assets..I.E. UAV trailer. It really isn't an issue on bigger maps, only the smaller maps where multiple flags can but surveyed could be considered an issue. But even then, every corner you run into stragglers or squads. UAV or not, and still have 3d spotting, non surpressed weapons/nades n shit...hopefully your squad has your six.
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I was thinking something along the lines of dynamic radius, so that UAV range gets drastically reduced on urban/smaller maps, while remaining the same on the larger maps.
 
Snakebabies said:
The fact that you can be pushed back in a base on a VEHICLE server with or with out commander is sad.....small maps...yes UAV poses an issue, albeit a minor one. But how many small maps (not counting/metro/locker as thre are only a few AoA) are there? Guilan, Zhavod, A/B golmud, **Flood zone**, Pearl Market?

The fact that you bring NS maps into the equation has my blood pressure up. UAV poses NO threat to "flanking" maneuvers...Also, on 80% of the maps, the gunship only patrols half the battlefield(2-3 maybe 4 flags), and lasts less than 1-2 minutes every time its dropped. And gets maybe 4-5 kills a rotation..
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Snake called Goat sad :(

LOL no but in all seriousness, look mate, while I consider myself a god among tank drivers, there is sometimes nothing you can do if a team lets ya get pushed back to the very front lines of our spawn. The right combination of good enemy pilots, engineers, and armor drivers can create a base rape even on maps like Zavod. That match I mentioned I think the base rape was actually up to our very first cap, which is still a base rape imo, it's right at the front line of the main base spawn in Zavod.

Was just trying to say that a UAV spam over that general area makes every squad's chance at escaping a highly unlikely event, for the most part. And only 1 commander being in the match exasperates those situations.
 
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quads/FAVs are enough to slip past....tranny chopper and one flare is enough to get past...not saying you will survive the landing, but only maps I have seen unable to get by are Metro/Lockers...Im not calling Goat sad, I was saying out of 32 players and vehicles(especially choppers) if a squad cant get out and cap a flag(UAV or not), that is sad.
 
I took some time to play a round of commander on golmud to get these screenshots to show that the UAV isn't that powerful distance wise.

As you can see in the shots, you barely can cover 50% of A/B with the UAV. If your squad just stays on the outside of somebody trying to cover both, you will not be found.

As for F, you can see where you need to be to flank. Then, once it disappears, cap it as the commander might need to UAV something else!

UAV isn't over powered...
 

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Unless you are out in the open, the enemy only has an "idea'" of where you are at. just because you are spotted on the mini-map, doesn't mean you have a triangle over your head.
Being HVT sucks, yes, because it shows everyone where you are at and you can not hide...but it makes it fun and gives me an adrenaline rush to try and defend myself for extra points :)
 
I enjoy the fact that controlling one point would enable cruise missile or gunship giving your team the advantage. OR defending those points against the enemy. With or without a commander you still need to control more points to gain the upper hand. Therefore a strategy is needed. Half the time i can't do jack shit in a pug with a commander or not, but do i have fun in the all maps server (i think yes).

I remember pairing up with tactical russian on all maps server,(he is a AA whore btw) had a blast with him even with gunship or cruise missiles coming at us. I had to put my two cents in even though i have a few more cents.
 
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